Wpis ten nawiązuje do: https://skribh.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/172-01-problem-alansko-osetyjsko-bogwiejaki-a-zapozyczenia-od-slowianskie-czyli-kto-od-kogo-co-jak-kiedy-i-gdzie-zapozyczal-na-przykladzie-twierdzen-grzegorza-jagodzinskiego-piotra-makucha-i-im/
Allo-allo wszelkiej maści, czyli wyznawcy oficjalnych przeciw-słowiańskich teorii (nie tylko językowych), a w szczególności zwolennicy tzw. od-irańskich zapożyczeń językowych, rzekomo odnajdywanych przez nich w j. słowiańskim, (choć nie tylko oni), powinni raczej mieć się coraz bardziej na baczności,..
…bo oto pojawiły się już ale i nadchodzą całkiem nowe prace naukowe z dziedziny genetyki populacyjnej / ludności,.. a wraz z nimi pojawia się wiele pytań i wątpliwości, np. o tzw. ojczyznę tzw. Przed-Indo-Europejczyków tzw. PIE, współczesnych Gruzinów i innych, w tym Ormian (łączonych niekiedy z tzw. Grekami), jak i Osetyńców… z ich językiem, co to rzekomo właśnie od ich irańskich, alańskich, scytyjskich, sarmackich itp. przodków i z ich rzekomo „irańskiego” języka, miały kiedyś, jakoś przyjść do j. słowiańskiego te tzw. zapożyczenia od-irańskie, rzekomo niepodważalnie odnalezione i stwierdzone przez tzw. oficjalne germańskie językoznawcze autorytety…
Zwróciliście uwagę, jak tacy oficjalni allo-allo językoznawcy i ich wyznawcy, podchodzą do wszelkich odkryć związanych z genetyką, zwłaszcza jeśli może mieć lub co najgorsze ma to związek ze Słowianami, Naszą Tradycją i Dziejami..?
Oto kilka artykułów jak i komentarzy do nich. Myślę, że poważnie trzeba trochę poczytać, o tym Kaukazie i okolicach…
Proto-Kartvelian and Proto-Indo-European are supposed to have been in contact with each other.
So considering that Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age steppe people basically look like a mixture of present-day Kartvelians and EHG, then which part of this mixture did Indo-European come from?
As PIE and proto-Uralic undoubtedly were in contact which each other as well that question doesn’t even need ancient DNA to be answered. Mind you, some linguists even entertain a theory of common origin: The Indo-Uralic languages.
The wiki site has some comparisons. They are in very, very commonly used language. I mean: ne- for negation, m- for me, tu/tun for you, kwi, kwe, kwo for what and who and so on is ki, ke, ku, ko in Uralic
It seems a very deep connection, too deep for simple loan words, some say. But even if it is merely the case of loan words, both languages must have had intimate contact.
Mam tu dodatkowo ciekawy artykuł o genetyce Ormian a przy okazji i innych ludów bytujących na Kaukazie i okolicach. Wiele ciekawego można przeczytać o Haplogrupie R (R1a, R1b), Q, G. Przy tej okazji następne pytanie musi paść, o genetyke tzw. Osetyńców, rzekomych potomków Sarmatów, Scytów, Alanów itp., co to wg. oficjalnej nauki byli rzekomo ludami irańskimi… Niestety coś tu zgrzyta i to coraz bardziej… Przymominam, że Armeńczyków łączy się z Grekami i zasiedlenie ich terytorów nastąpiło wg. oficjalnej nauki z kierunku Bałkanów, przez Azję Mniejszą, Urartu do Kaukazu…
March 01, 2015
Two observations on the ancestry of Armenians
I was thinking a bit on how to interpret the findings of the new Haber et al. preprint, and especially the idea that „29% of the Armenian ancestry may originate from an ancestral population best represented by Neolithic Europeans.” I looked at the globe13 proportions, and strangely enough, I had estimated that the three Armenian samples (Armenian_D, Armenians, and Armenians_15_Y) have 28-29% of the Mediterranean component that is modal in Sardinians. (…) Looking back at my inferences of Armenian ancestry, it seems (according to globe13) to come completely from West_Asian, Mediterranean, and Southwest_Asian. The Mediterranean component seems real enough as it seems to match Sardinians/early European farmers well.(…) Another curious finding is the lack of North_European in a latitudinal „column” of populations from the Yemen, through the Levant to the South Caucasus (Georgians and Armenians). It seems that North_European is the only one of the four major Caucasoid components that Armenians lack to any important degree. There is a rather abrupt change between the South Caucasus (~1%) and the North Caucasus (15-20%). It seems that the Greater Caucasus did act like a barrier to gene flow. The K=4 analysis of the same dataset that produced K=13 (globe13) also shows the same barrier: all three Armenian samples and Georgians have ~0% of „Amerindian” (which is surely correlated to „Ancient North Eurasian” ancestry and via it with North_European), but North Caucasians and Europeans have 4-10%. It’s clear that this influence did not cross the Greater Caucasus, as Armenians and Georgians lack it.
Mike Thomas said…
How do populations like Iranians and Indians fit in the „North European” component ?
” It seems that the Greater Caucasus did act like a barrier to gene flow.”
Three isolated language families surived in the Caucusus, those mountains must be really good because in Europe many languages and cultures disapperead.
Obviously something very relevant was going on in and around the Caucuses.
What’s throwing me off, Dienekes, is that there are extremely high G2a concentrations on both sides of the divide — in Caucasians that have a high North_Euro component, and in those that lack it.
I’ve been pondering the idea that G2a is somehow connected to very early proto West Asians, who diverged into several groups, some becoming EEFs (by subsuming a WHG-rich pop), some becoming coastal Levantines, Anatolians, some moving to Iran, some morphing into proto Caucasians, etc. Anyways I have to think more about this and look at the specifics of G2a phylogeny, so back to the original point…
How to explain this divide? It doesn’t match any other invasion pattern of killing the farmer men.
The History of Herodotus:
„Herodotus has two nations of Pactyans”…… one portion of Armenia, one India”
Pakistan [Kashmiri] 16.67%
Eurogenes has already calculated some of the highest ANE adjacent to the Armenians within the Caucasus; most likely same as Yamanya R1b Z2103 5300+/-B.P
Bagvalins-southwestern Dagestan, 67% R1b most likely R1b Z2103
Tabasarans are an ethnic group who live mostly in Dagestan-39.5%
Gary Moore said…
There are some interesting observations about the neighbors of the Armenians:
Compare with this map of the Hittite Empire at its peak with the distribution of YHG Q in Anatolia and the Middle East:
YDNA-Q distribution map: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml
Note that the peak distribution of YHG-Q peaks in the area of the core of the former Hittite homeland. Significantly, the frequency of YHG-Q falls off in the Caucasus itself, in the region of Georgia and Armenia. YHG-Q reappears along the eastern shore of the Black Sea farther to the north.
Arch Hades said…
So where did mainland Greeks get their ~25% North_European component from on your Globe13 then? Medieval Slavs?
According to Patterson et al. 2012=’s admixture models, Neolithic farmers near completely replaced the indigenous Hunter-Gatherers in Southern Europe. Only ancient DNA from the far South of Europe and the Aegean can confirm this I suppose, but I would not expect to see much haplogroup R1 around the Aegean or North_ European autosomal components on your ADMIXTURE runs until Bronze age and mainstream Indo-European timescale. Certainly for Southern Europe, the Yamna/Kurgan model for PIE makes solid sense IMO.
The Caucuses and Near East a whole different monster though.
I would be very interested to see where the Yamna come up on your Globe13, probably lots of North_European and West_Asian.
Gary Moore said…
„The K=4 analysis of the same dataset that produced K=13 (globe13) also shows the same barrier: all three Armenian samples and Georgians have ~0% of „Amerindian” (which is surely correlated to „Ancient North Eurasian” ancestry and via it with North_European), but North Caucasians and Europeans have 4-10%. It’s clear that this influence did not cross the Greater Caucasus, as Armenians and Georgians lack it.”
Wouldn’t the presence of YDNA Q in Anatolia appear to contradict this conclusion? Moreover, it is not clear if all of the YDNA Q in Anatolia is related to the Turkish invasion. For instance, Q1a2b2 (L938) is observed in Lithuania, Britain, and Portugal – not regions associated with Turks – as well as Anatolia. It appears in all likelihood that YDNA Q may have been associated with the Hittites as well as the original speakers of Anatolian languages. The discontinuous distribution of Q in the region along the Black Sea would in turn appear to support a Steppe origin for the speakers of Anatolian languages.
Traces of NE Asian ancestry have been found in other Middle Eastern populations. According to the Europedia article on YHG Q: „Autosomal analyses have confirmed that all Levantine people (Jews, Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians) possess about 0.5% of Northeast Asian (Mongoloid) admixture. Since these populations lack Mongoloid mtDNA, the presence of Northeast Asian admixture can only be explained by the 2% of Q1b among Levantine men, the only paternal lineage of Mongoloid origin in the region.”
It should be noted that YDNA Q1b has been detected in Native American populations in South America. However, the researchers who collected these samples choose to exclude them from their study, citing the presence of Jewish rubber tappers in the Amazon region and the association with SW Eurasian populations, even though it is widely accepted the that this particular YDNA type entered the region from Central Asia fairly recently (that is, around the time of the Bronze Age).
Another curious finding is the lack of North_European in a latitudinal „column” of populations from the Yemen, through the Levant to the South Caucasus (Georgians and Armenians).
Georgians don’t lack it, in Calculators such as Globe13 or v3 they have frequency from 3-12%. While no matter which calculator you use Armenians almost completely lack this component.
sorry for the tripple post.
The break up of the Mal’ta genome showed ~26% of Caucasus_Gedrosia component. That surely doesn’t mean Mal’ta was CG admixed but that Caucasus_Gedrosia received ANE admixture. How can North Caucasians with less „North European” have more ANE than North Europeans who have more of this „North European” component?
Obviously Armenians and even more so Georgians have ANE admixture this is visible even from the Lazaridis and Reich papers.
Reichs own statement: „Yamna was East European H&G + 50% Near Eastern farmers rich in ANE.
The fact that the Armenians and other peoples of the Southern Caucus almost completely lack the Northern European component is very pertinent to the questions of the PIE homeland, and Ind-European migration to the Indian Subcontinent and Iran.
The Northern European component is seen at low rates among various Indo-Iranian groups, but higher than the ~1% seen among armenians. If one assumes that the European component indicative of the Indo-European migrations, then the lack of it in the Southern Caucus region would seem to go against a migration from Anatolia or the Potic Step to India and Iran via the Caucus and the Middle East, but rather provide support for a northerly route for the Indo-Iranians around the Caspian consistent with BMAC. This may have some further effect on the Anatolia vs. Pontic Steppe homeland debate.
However, I am somewhat confused by the fact that the Armenians – who are an Indo-European group which has remained close to the PIE homeland, and has seemed to have not mixed much with other groups – lacks the Northern European component almost completely. This may indicate that PIE people also lacked the component, and that the Northern European components among the Indo-Iranians, and central-asian mummies etc, come from some other earlier migration. This observation may also lend credence to the Anatolian hypothesis in which the Proto Indo-Europeans would be expected to have less of a Northern European component.
Or, possibly, some subset of the PIEs went to the Pontic Steppe, became Northern Europeanized, and later migrated to Iran, India etc, while the Hittites, Armenians, etc were left behind and did not have the Northern component.
Either way, thanks for this very thought provoking news.
I agree with Dienekes that there is a discontinuity between the North and the South Caucasus. However, I disagree with him that ANE in Armenians is 0. According to Lazaridis’s, Table S14.15, the Abkkhasians have ANE of 18.6%. Georgians and Armenians can be expected to have the same. Regarding Native American-like components at K=4, the recent Haak ADMIXTURE figure may be good to study.
(1) European hunter gatherers such as La Brana, Loschbour and HungaryGamba who have no ANE but only WHG all have some of the pink Native American component at K=4.
(2) Armenians, Georgians and Abkhasians do not have this component. But based on Lazaridis, we can expect that they in fact do have ANE.
Gary Moore said…
Barant wrote: „The Northern European component is seen at low rates among various Indo-Iranian groups, but higher than the ~1% seen among armenians. If one assumes that the European component indicative of the Indo-European migrations, then the lack of it in the Southern Caucus region would seem to go against a migration from Anatolia or the Potic Step to India and Iran via the Caucus and the Middle East, but rather provide support for a northerly route for the Indo-Iranians around the Caspian consistent with BMAC. This may have some further effect on the Anatolia vs. Pontic Steppe homeland debate. ”
Probably the Armenians are almost entirely descended from original Bronze Age Anatolian inhabitants with little admixture with the Hittite-related populations. Evidence from Scandinavia as well as the Hittite homeland in Anatolia suggests that different variants of YHG Q may in fact be a marker for the earliest Indo-Europeans. This is consistent with linguistic evidence which indicates that *PIE shows influences of Northeast Siberian – Native American languages, such as pronoun systems. There is a lot of data to support a model in which the precursor on Indo-European languages formed in the context of a sprachbund involving North American and Dene-Yeniseian languages.
Ket: kiˑ (near), kiˑ-rʸ, kiˑdǝ, kiˑrʸǝ, kiˑrʸ (masc.), kˈi-rʸe (fem./neut.), kˈi-nʸa (pl.)
Iroquoian: Mohawk kí:ken/ken’ í:ken / Cherokee hina (h > k)
PIE: ‚this’ kos, *koh₂, *kod
Ket: tuˑ (intermediate distance), tuˑ-rʸ, tuˑdǝ, tuˑrʸǝ, tuˑrʸ (masc.), tˈu-rʸe (fem./neut.), tˈu-nʸa (pl.)
Iroquoian: Mohawk hí:ken/tho í:ken / Cherokee na
PIE: ‚that’ só, *séh₂, *tód (s > t)
Note that the modern Cherokee form for ‚he, she, it’ – nahi – closely follows Armenian na ‚he, she, it’ as well as Germanic hiz (“this, this one”)
Ket: sīn / Tlingit shaan (of people) / Navajo sání
PIE: ‚old’ senh₁ó-
No i co Wy na to, hm..?