555 SKRBH 67 R1a nadchodzi… z północy, czyli kolejne gwoździe do trumny tzw. południowej drogi R1a 02

A tu mam coś jeszcze o R1a, a zwłaszcza o jego braku w tzw. kulturze jamowej / Yamna / Yamnaya… ale także i dalej na południu, także wyznawcy południowej drogi R1a… ten teges…

Przy okazji w środku komentarzy jest widoczna piękna dyskusja o rasizmie, rasach, itp, czyli samozaoranie politycznie poprawnych lewaków maści wszelkiej…

A i przypomnę, że i ja także bardzo kocham Kristiansena i że dawałem temu tu wyraz wielokrotnie… Cieszy Mię, że i East Pole, którego bardzo cenię również kocha tego mendrca duńskiej archeologii miłościom bezgranicznom…

Miłego czytania…


Tuesday, September 26, 2017

The beast among Y-haplogroups

A lot has been written about Y-haplogroup R1a over the years. Sadly, most of it was wrong, such as its posited Pleistocene origin in the Indian subcontinent and subsequent migration to Europe.

In all likelihood, R1a was born somewhere in North Eurasia. More importantly, its presently most common subclade, R1a-M417, no doubt came into existence on the Pontic-Caspian (or Western) steppe in modern-day Ukraine and southern Russia just 7,000-6,000 years ago.

And within a couple of thousand years it expanded in almost all directions, probably on the back of the early Indo-European dispersals, to cover a massive range from Scandinavia to South Asia. It is the beast among Y-haplogroups.

The most common subclade of R1a-M417 in South Asia today is R1a-Z93, and, realistically, it couldn’t have arrived there earlier than about 2,000BC. So much for the Pleistocene.

See also…

R1a-M417 from Eneolithic Ukraine!!!11

Eastern Europe as a bifurcation hotspot for Y-hg R1

Late PIE ground zero now obvious; location of PIE homeland still uncertain, but…

Ancient herders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe crashed into India: no ifs or buts

Posted by Davidski at 10:24:00 PM 241 comments:

EastPole said…
After discovering R1a-M417 in Dereivka culture somebody should inform Kristiansen, Anthony and others that their theory about Corded Ware and Proto-Germanic coming from Yamnaya is obsolete.


September 27, 2017 at 12:03 AM

Aram said…
There was no single M417 in Yamna? I can’t believe it. 🙂
September 27, 2017 at 12:58 AM

Davidski said…
(…) @Aram Too bad for Yamnaya (so far).
September 27, 2017 at 1:03 AM

Karl_K said…
Sredny Stog !
September 27, 2017 at 1:05 AM Czytaj dalej 

554 SKRBH 66 R1a nadchodzi… z północy, czyli kolejne gwoździe do trumny tzw. południowej drogi R1a 01

EastPole said…
I was speculating some time ago that Corded Ware didn’t come from Yamnay but from Sredny Stog.

“The expert Dmytro Telegin has divided the chronology of Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000–3500 BC) used corded ware pottery which may have originated there, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West. Most notably, it has perhaps the earliest evidence of horse domestication (in phase II), with finds suggestive of cheek-pieces (psalia). “


Now the romantic side of what really happened in Alexandria/Dereivka:


Of course “an angel’s kiss in spring” is a poetic metaphor. Girls used hops (xъmel/haoma/soma) not angel’s kisse.
September 20, 2017 at 1:14 AM

Ric Hern said…
@ EastPole And what about Phase 1 of Sredny Stog ? Can you throw any light on that ?
September 20, 2017 at 1:28 AM

Ric Hern said…
@ EastPole And what about this also from Wikipedia: „…Yuri Rassamakin suggests that the Sredny Stog culture should be considered as an areal term, with at least four distinct cultural elements co-existing inside the same geographical area.” Any thoughts ?
September 20, 2017 at 1:33 AM

EastPole said…
@Ric Hern “And what about Phase 1 of Sredny Stog ?”
It could be related to the division into Dereivka I and Dereivka II. Dereivka I population was made of hunter-gatherers and Dereivka II of pastoralists related to Corded Ware Culture. Because of some local differences Sredny Stog was divided into following cultures: Skelanska, Stogovska, Kvitanska and Dereivka by Rassamakin. Let’s wait for aDNA from those cultures before we speculate about them.
September 20, 2017 at 3:14 AM

EastPole said…
What puzzles me greatly is the position Varna and Balkans_Chalcolithic outliers. Assuming that their position on PCA was due to some early migrations from the steppe we can conclude that at the very early age there existed different steppe populations: NO. 1 is like Sredny Stog, NO. 2 is like Yamnaya and NO. 3 is like Yamnaya outlier with a lot of CHG: https://s26.postimg.org/z4i5e3rbd/screenshot_280.png
September 20, 2017 at 11:20 PM

Rob said…
@ EastPole
It’s probably a gradient that’ll fill out with more individuals tested. I’d also add Kumtepe IV to that list. It means that the migration of these „steppe” people, aka north Caucasus or central Eurasians, had begun by 4500 BC, and they had started to arrive at key sites
September 20, 2017 at 11:29 PM

EastPole said…
@Rob “It means that the migration of these „steppe” people, aka north Caucasus or central Eurasians, had begun by 4500 BC, and they had started to arrive at key sites”

If a population similar to late Sredny Stog Dereivka formed somewhere on the steppe as early as 4500 BC then I would guess they are the best candidates for PIE.
September 21, 2017 at 12:06 AM

Oto kilka ostatnich wpisów z http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/, które omawiają wiele bardzo ciekawych zagadnień, związanych min. z pojawianiem się ludzi R1a min. na Bałkanach, z ich końmi, prosem… i kulturą… Niestety dla niektórych… przybyłych z północy, a nie z południa…

Jeśli ktoś jeszcze nie rozumie, że nie ma żadnych dowodów na tzw. południową drogę R1a, no to niech nadal czeka na jakieś zbawienie, a ja tymczasem puszczam te ciekawostki…


Tuesday, September 12, 2017

Three key late comers in prehistoric Greece: steppe ancestry, horses and millet

Czytaj dalej 

478 SKRBH 47 The End of Old Europe and the Rise of the Steppe

Figure 11.3. Tripolye B1-B2 migrations. After Dergachev 2002, figure 6.2.

Znalazłem ten tekst przypadkiem, kiedy szukałem grafik do poprzedniego wpisu. Wydaje mi się, że jest to część książki D.W. Anthony The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World… 

Uważam, że D.W. Anthony swoim brakiem znajomości słowiańskich nazw części wozu i konia, patrz np. wpis nr 44 udowodnił, jak mondra i wszechfiedząca jest ofitzjalna nałka,.. która oczywiście także nie jest uprzedzona przeciw-słowiańskio… ;-( Do tej mondrości powrócę jeszcze i wykażę, że tacy jak D.W. Anthony są uprzedzeni przeciw-słowiańsko lub… zwyczajnie niedouczeni… 😦


The End of Old Europe and the Rise of the Steppe

By 4300–4200 BCE Old Europe was at its peak. The Varna cemetery in eastern Bulgaria had the most ostentatious funerals in the world, richer than anything of the same age in the Near East. Among the 281 graves at Varna, 61 (22%) contained more than three thousand golden objects together weighing 6 kg (13.2 lb). Two thousand of these were found in just four graves (1, 4, 36, and 43). Grave 43, an adult male, had golden beads, armrings, and rings totaling 1,516 grams (3.37 lb), including a copper axe-adze with a gold-sheathed handle.1 Golden ornaments have also been found in tell settlements in the lower Danube valley, at Gumelniţa, Vidra, and at Hotnitsa (a 310-gm cache of golden ornaments). A few men in these communities played prominent social roles as chiefs or clan leaders, symbolized by the public display of shining gold ornaments and cast copper weapons.

Thousands of settlements with broadly similar ceramics, houses, and female figurines were occupied between about 4500 and 4100 BCE in eastern Bulgaria (Varna), the upland plains of Balkan Thrace (KaranovoVI), the upper part of the Lower Danube valley in western Bulgaria and Romania (Krivodol-Sălcuta), and the broad riverine plains of the lower Danube valley (Gumelniţa) (figure 11.1). Beautifully painted ceramic vessels, some almost 1 m tall and fired at temperatures of over 800˚C, lined the walls of their two-storied houses. Conventions in ceramic design and ritual were shared over large regions. The crafts of metallurgy, ceramics, and even flint working became so refined that they must have required master craft specialists who were patronized and supported by chiefs. In spite of this, power was not obviously centralized in any one village. Perhaps, as John Chapman observed, it was a time when the restricted resources (gold, copper, Spondylus shell) were not critical, and the critical resources (land, timber, labor, marriage partners) were not seriously restricted. This could have prevented any one region or town from dominating others.2

Figure 11.1 Map of Old Europe at 4500–4000 BCE. Czytaj dalej

465 SKRBH 46 Pra-Słowianie, co żyli jeszcze przed Yamnaya culture,.. czyli Sredny Stog i Dereivka culture 02


Oto kolejna część wiadomości o tzw. kulturze Sredny Stog, a właściwie o jej najbardziej znanym stanowisku archeologicznym zwanym Dereivka. Proszę zwrócić uwagę na strzałki, które wskazują skąd pojawili się w tym miejscu ludzie z haplogrupą R1a… Jak widać nie jest to południe… 🙂 Dodatkowo pragnę zwrócić uwagę na to, jak bardzo zawężony został obszar występowania rzek, których nazwy mają słowiański źródłosłów…

Przypominam, że to nie jest prawda, co twierdzą różni tacy jedni uprzedzeni przeciw-słowiańsko, jakoby Słowianie nie znali słów odpowiadających tzw. PIE… hm… zaraz zaraz… o co tu chodzi? Sami zobaczcie…


(…)Etymology 1

From Middle English horse, hors, from Old English hors (horse), metathesis from Proto-Germanic hrussą(horse), from Proto-Indo-European ḱr̥sos (horse), from Proto-Indo-European*ḱers- (to run). (…)

Etymology 2

Unknown (…)


horse (n.) „solidungulate perissodactyl mammal of the family Equidæ and genus Equus” [Century Dictionary], Old English hors „horse,” from Proto-Germanic hursa- (source also of Old Norse hross, Old Frisian, Old Saxon hors, Middle Dutch ors, Dutch ros, Old High German hros, German Roß „horse”), of unknown origin, connected by some with PIE root kurs-, source of Latin currere „to run” (see current (adj.)).

The usual Indo-European word is represented by Old English eoh, Greek hippos, Latin equus, from PIE *ekwo- „horse” (see equine). In many other languages, as in English, this root has been lost in favor of synonyms, probably via superstitious taboo on uttering the name of an animal so important in Indo-European religion. For the Romanic words (French cheval, Spanish caballo) see cavalier (n.); for Dutch paard, German Pferd, see palfrey; for Swedish häst, Danish hest see henchman. As plural Old English had collective singular horse as well as horses, in Middle English also sometimes horsen, but horses has been the usual plural since 17c. (…)


equine (adj.) 1765, from Latin equinus „of a horse, of horses; of horsehair,” from equus „horse,” from PIE root *ekwo- „horse” (source also of Greek hippos, Old Irish ech, Old English eoh, Gothic aihwa-, Sanskrit açva-, Avestan aspa-, Old Church Slavonic ehu-, all meaning „horse”).



From Proto-Italic ekwos, from Proto-Indo-European h₁éḱwos (horse). Cognates include Ancient Greek ἵππος(híppos), Sanskrit अश्व (áśva), Persian اسب (æsb), Old Armenian էշ (ēš, donkey), Tocharian B yakwe, Gaulish epos. (…)



Alternative reconstructions


Usually explained as a derivation of the adjective h₁eḱus (quick, swift), also seen in e.g. Ancient Greek ὠκύς(ōkús), Latin ōcior (faster) and Sanskrit आशु (āśú, fast, quick) (all < PIE h₁oh₁ḱus (swift)). The thematic derivation would express association with a root noun *h₁eḱ- (swiftness, celerity), thus denoting „that which has swiftness” or „the swift one”. The adjective would have to be derived from the root by reduplication, which is unusual in PIE nominal word formation. Many linguists therefore reject it as popular etymology and suggest other sources:

  • Kulanda 2008 argues that the PIE word is borrowed from North Caucasian, since there are no known Nostratic cognates; compare Kabardian шы (šə), Abkhaz аҽы (āčə), Avar чу (ču), Karata ичва (ičʷa, mare), Lezgi шив (šiv, horse) etc. (NCED 520). This etymology has been criticized by Matasović 2012:291 who argues that the direction of borrowing is probably from PIE into North Caucasian: steppe horses were probably traded for Mesopotamian imports on the North Caucasus in the eneolithic period. The fact that we find fricatives and affricates in the Caucasian reflexes of this word indicates that the source could have been an IE dialect of the satem type.
  • Bomhard connects it to Proto-Altaic *èk‘á (to move quickly, to rage) with the original meaning not „the swift one” but „the spirited, violent, fiery, or wild one”, both deriving from Proto-Nostratic root *ʔekʰ- „to move quickly, to rage; to be furious, raging, violent, spirited, fiery, wild”

The original thematic form is also disputed – according to Kloekhorst (2008), the original derivation was a u-stem, to which point Anatolian reflexes which presume Proto-Anatolian u-stem h₁éḱu-, as opposed to the thematic (o-stem) derivation in all the other PIE branches. There is no known phonological development through which PIE h₁eḱwo- could yield PAnat. h₁eḱu-, and in view of the productivity of the o-stem inflection in Anatolian it is unlikely that PIE h₁eḱwo- would have yielded PAnat. h₁éḱu- through secondary developments. We therefore must conclude that the Proto-Anatolian u-stem h₁éḱu- reflects the original state of affairs and that the thematicization as visible in the non-Anatolian IE languages (which is a trivial development) must be regarded as a common innovation of them. In other words, this is one of the evidences supportive of the Indo-Hittite hypothesis. The original paradigm was probably thus h₁éḱ-u-s, h₁éḱ-u-m, h₁ḱ-u-és, from the stem h₁eḱ-u- (swift).


*h₁éḱwos m (non-ablauting)[4]

  1. stallion, horse


singular dual plural
nominative *h₁éḱwos *h₁éḱwoh₁ *h₁éḱwoes
vocative *h₁éḱwe *h₁éḱwoh₁ *h₁éḱwoes
accusative *h₁éḱwom *h₁éḱwoh₁ *h₁éḱwons
genitive *h₁éḱwosyo *? *h₁éḱwooHom
ablative *h₁éḱwead *? *h₁éḱwomos
dative *h₁éḱwoey *? *h₁éḱwomos
locative *h₁éḱwey, *h₁éḱwoy *? *h₁éḱwoysu
instrumental *h₁éḱwoh₁ *? *h₁éḱwōys



  • Anatolian: *ʔeḱu-
    • Hittite:  (ANŠE.KUR.RA-us, /ekkus/) (only attested with Sumerogram)
    • Luwian:
      Cuneiform Luwian:  (ANŠE.KUR.RA-us, /aššus, azzus/)
      Hieroglyphic Luwian: EQUUSásù(wa)
    • Lycian:  (esbe)
  • Armenian:
    • Old Armenian: էշ (ēš, donkey)
      • Armenian: էշ (ēš)
  • Balto-Slavic:
    • Lithuanian: ašvà (mare)
    • Old Prussian aswinan (mare’s milk)
  • Celtic: *ekʷos (see there for further descendants)
  • Germanic: *ehwaz (see there for further descendants)
  • Hellenic: *íkkʷos (see there for further descendants)
  • Indo-Iranian: *Háćwas (see there for further descendants)
  • Italic: *ekwos
    • Old Latin: equos
    • Venetic: ekvon (acc.)
  • Phrygian: [script needed] (es’)
  • Thracian: [script needed] (esvas)
  • Tocharian: *yä́kwë


  1. ^ Ringe, Don (2006) From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic, Oxford University Press
  2. ^ Kloekhorst 2008:239
  3. ^ De Vaan, Michiel (2008) Etymological Dictionary of Latin and the other Italic Languages (Leiden Indo-European Etymological Dictionary Series; 7), Leiden, Boston: Brill
  4. ^ EIEC p. 273

Czyli co… ten tzw. PIE miał na określenie KL”oS+aKa, KL”aC”y, Ko”Ca,.. kilka różnych słów, jak h₁éḱwos albo ekwo-, albo ḱr̥sos, albo kurs-,.. nie zapominajc, o h₁eḱus, czy  h₁oh₁ḱus,.. czyli  słowiańskim SoKoLe i tzw. rough breathing wymianie dźwięku tzw. PIE zapisywanego znakiem S na późniejszy zapisywany znakiem H?!! 🙂 LOL „:-)

Pisanie o tym, że te fszystkie ałtorytety nie znajo słowiańskich słów, jak te powyżej jest już straszliwie nudne, bo pisałem już o tym wiele razy…



…ale jak widać już czas, żeby napisać o tym znów, bo ilość mondrość poświęconych temu zagadnieniu gwałtownie wzrasta, jak trujące grzyby po deszczu…

A,.. strona poświęcona Dereivce nie występuje na wikipedii w języku polskim… no bo i po co, nieprawdaż? 😦Czytaj dalej