555 SKRBH 67 R1a nadchodzi… z północy, czyli kolejne gwoździe do trumny tzw. południowej drogi R1a 02

A tu mam coś jeszcze o R1a, a zwłaszcza o jego braku w tzw. kulturze jamowej / Yamna / Yamnaya… ale także i dalej na południu, także wyznawcy południowej drogi R1a… ten teges…

Przy okazji w środku komentarzy jest widoczna piękna dyskusja o rasizmie, rasach, itp, czyli samozaoranie politycznie poprawnych lewaków maści wszelkiej…

A i przypomnę, że i ja także bardzo kocham Kristiansena i że dawałem temu tu wyraz wielokrotnie… Cieszy Mię, że i East Pole, którego bardzo cenię również kocha tego mendrca duńskiej archeologii miłościom bezgranicznom…

Miłego czytania…

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/the-beast-among-y-haplogroups.html

Tuesday, September 26, 2017

The beast among Y-haplogroups

A lot has been written about Y-haplogroup R1a over the years. Sadly, most of it was wrong, such as its posited Pleistocene origin in the Indian subcontinent and subsequent migration to Europe.

In all likelihood, R1a was born somewhere in North Eurasia. More importantly, its presently most common subclade, R1a-M417, no doubt came into existence on the Pontic-Caspian (or Western) steppe in modern-day Ukraine and southern Russia just 7,000-6,000 years ago.

And within a couple of thousand years it expanded in almost all directions, probably on the back of the early Indo-European dispersals, to cover a massive range from Scandinavia to South Asia. It is the beast among Y-haplogroups.

The most common subclade of R1a-M417 in South Asia today is R1a-Z93, and, realistically, it couldn’t have arrived there earlier than about 2,000BC. So much for the Pleistocene.

See also…

R1a-M417 from Eneolithic Ukraine!!!11

Eastern Europe as a bifurcation hotspot for Y-hg R1

Late PIE ground zero now obvious; location of PIE homeland still uncertain, but…

Ancient herders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe crashed into India: no ifs or buts

Posted by Davidski at 10:24:00 PM 241 comments:

EastPole said…
After discovering R1a-M417 in Dereivka culture somebody should inform Kristiansen, Anthony and others that their theory about Corded Ware and Proto-Germanic coming from Yamnaya is obsolete.

http://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/english/calendar/archive_2017/the-split-reconstructing-early-indo-european-language-and-culture/the-split-abstracts.pdf

September 27, 2017 at 12:03 AM

Aram said…
There was no single M417 in Yamna? I can’t believe it. 🙂
September 27, 2017 at 12:58 AM

Davidski said…
(…) @Aram Too bad for Yamnaya (so far).
September 27, 2017 at 1:03 AM

Karl_K said…
Sredny Stog !
September 27, 2017 at 1:05 AM 

554 SKRBH 66 R1a nadchodzi… z północy, czyli kolejne gwoździe do trumny tzw. południowej drogi R1a 01

EastPole said…
I was speculating some time ago that Corded Ware didn’t come from Yamnay but from Sredny Stog.

“The expert Dmytro Telegin has divided the chronology of Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000–3500 BC) used corded ware pottery which may have originated there, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West. Most notably, it has perhaps the earliest evidence of horse domestication (in phase II), with finds suggestive of cheek-pieces (psalia). “

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture

Now the romantic side of what really happened in Alexandria/Dereivka:

http://musicpleer.audio/#!02e99f568b65098462a9acbe33874ed5

Of course “an angel’s kiss in spring” is a poetic metaphor. Girls used hops (xъmel/haoma/soma) not angel’s kisse.
September 20, 2017 at 1:14 AM

Ric Hern said…
@ EastPole And what about Phase 1 of Sredny Stog ? Can you throw any light on that ?
September 20, 2017 at 1:28 AM

Ric Hern said…
@ EastPole And what about this also from Wikipedia: „…Yuri Rassamakin suggests that the Sredny Stog culture should be considered as an areal term, with at least four distinct cultural elements co-existing inside the same geographical area.” Any thoughts ?
September 20, 2017 at 1:33 AM

EastPole said…
@Ric Hern “And what about Phase 1 of Sredny Stog ?”
It could be related to the division into Dereivka I and Dereivka II. Dereivka I population was made of hunter-gatherers and Dereivka II of pastoralists related to Corded Ware Culture. Because of some local differences Sredny Stog was divided into following cultures: Skelanska, Stogovska, Kvitanska and Dereivka by Rassamakin. Let’s wait for aDNA from those cultures before we speculate about them.
September 20, 2017 at 3:14 AM

EastPole said…
What puzzles me greatly is the position Varna and Balkans_Chalcolithic outliers. Assuming that their position on PCA was due to some early migrations from the steppe we can conclude that at the very early age there existed different steppe populations: NO. 1 is like Sredny Stog, NO. 2 is like Yamnaya and NO. 3 is like Yamnaya outlier with a lot of CHG: https://s26.postimg.org/z4i5e3rbd/screenshot_280.png
September 20, 2017 at 11:20 PM

Rob said…
@ EastPole
It’s probably a gradient that’ll fill out with more individuals tested. I’d also add Kumtepe IV to that list. It means that the migration of these „steppe” people, aka north Caucasus or central Eurasians, had begun by 4500 BC, and they had started to arrive at key sites
September 20, 2017 at 11:29 PM

EastPole said…
@Rob “It means that the migration of these „steppe” people, aka north Caucasus or central Eurasians, had begun by 4500 BC, and they had started to arrive at key sites”

If a population similar to late Sredny Stog Dereivka formed somewhere on the steppe as early as 4500 BC then I would guess they are the best candidates for PIE.
September 21, 2017 at 12:06 AM

Oto kilka ostatnich wpisów z http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/, które omawiają wiele bardzo ciekawych zagadnień, związanych min. z pojawianiem się ludzi R1a min. na Bałkanach, z ich końmi, prosem… i kulturą… Niestety dla niektórych… przybyłych z północy, a nie z południa…

Jeśli ktoś jeszcze nie rozumie, że nie ma żadnych dowodów na tzw. południową drogę R1a, no to niech nadal czeka na jakieś zbawienie, a ja tymczasem puszczam te ciekawostki…

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/three-key-late-comers-in-prehistoric.html

Tuesday, September 12, 2017

Three key late comers in prehistoric Greece: steppe ancestry, horses and millet

456 SKRBH 41 Tzw. PIE, tzw. Yamnaya, tzw. Afanasievo, czyli dlaczego tu do jasnej cholery nic nie dodaje się, ani nie trzyma kupy, hm? 01

Monty Python – Ukamienowanie (Żywot Briana) PL

STWIERDZAM CO NASTĘPUJE: DO TEJ PORY NIKT NIE ODWAŻYŁ SIĘ NAWET SPRÓBOWAĆ OBALIĆ ALBO NAWET PODWAŻYĆ MOJEGO POMYSŁU O „PÓŁNOCNEJ DRODZE R1A”… I TEGO CO Z TEGO MOŻE WYNIKAĆ…

…więc przechodzę nad tym do porządku dziennego i przestaję już czekać na jakieś nadlatujące kamienie, rzucane ze strony bohatersko milczących „łowców ruskich trolli” lub innych wierzących w „południową drogę R1a”…

Rozumiem, że „wiarygodność dowodów i źródeł” upowszechnionych przez nich, a także moja ich analiza… zwyczajnie „przygniotły ich”, dokładnie tak jak pokazano to na tym powyższym filmie… 🙂 LOL 🙂

Pewno gdybym robił to dłużej, (czyli czekał na jakieś cudowne objawienie, itp)… to czuję że zwyczajnie umarłbym z nudów,.. no chyba żeby Anna M. pierwsza zamęczyłaby mnie swoimi prośbami o upowszechnienie danych o R1a i R1b znalezionych w kulturze Afanasievo, (wywodzącej się ze wschodniej Yamnaya) inaczej zwanej „The Yamna culture (also known as the Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture)”… 😉

Upowszechniłem już te dane co najmniej ze dwa razy (a pewno więcej), ale widzę, że nikt jakoś nie za bardzo rozumie, co z tych danych wynika, a wynika wg mnie bardzo wiele. Rozbiorę więc to teraz na części pierwsze,.. ale najpierw upowszechnię ruchomą animację przedstawiającą rzekomo jak to było z tą Yamnaya i tym, co wyszło z niej, jak i ponownie opublikuję poniższy wpis i co ciekawsze komentarze pod nim. Następnie poskładam to od nowa do kupy… ale to pewno już w drugiej lub następnych częściach tego wpisu…

EastPole said…
@Arzya “you are the victim of propaganda (aka PIE „reconstruction” and sound „laws”)”.

Not only he. There are problems with defining Proto-Indo-European. The most logical definition would be: it is the proto-language which links India and Europe. There is only one language which fits this definition. It is Indo-Slavic, i.e. the language from which Baltic, Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages originated and were spoken in India and Europe. This language correlates well with R1a-Z645 expansion. Germanic tribes didn’t have contacts with Indo-Iranians. They had contacts with Slavs, but Germanic scholars don’t want to admit it.

Listen to what top Germanic scholar Guus Kroonen is saying:

“Slavs were barbarians to Germanic people…You don’t borrow from barbarians, that’s the rule.”

This is why proto-Germanic is based on some BS reconstructions from some BS PIE language which never existed and never was spoken by anybody.
March 1, 2017 at 12:07 PM

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/r1b-m269-in-afanasievo.html

Wednesday, March 1, 2017

R1b-M269 in Afanasievo

Back in 2015, Allentoft et al. published four Afanasievo genomes that finally confirmed beyond any doubt that the enigmatic Afanasievo people were migrants to the Altai region from Eastern Europe.

However, all four samples came from female remains, which left us wondering about the Y-haplogroup composition of the Afanasievo population. As it turns out, a French study from 2014 found that three Afanasievo individuals belonged to R1b, with two classified as R1b-M269 (see here).

There’s nothing remarkable (???!!! Dawidski nagle zgłupiał, albo nie chce przyznać, że to jest bardzo ważne???!!!) about this, considering that the above mentioned four Afanasievo samples look essentially identical to M269-rich eastern Yamnaya samples from Kalmykia and Samara in terms of genome-wide genetic structure (for instance, see here). But it’s a useful bit of info that has somehow eluded us all until now. Thanks to Kristiina for the find

Citation…

Clémence Hollard. Peuplement du sud de la Sibérie et de l’Altaï à l’âge du Bronze : apport de la paléogénétique. Paléontologie. Université de Strasbourg, 2014. Français. NNT : 2014STRAJ002. tel-01296484

Posted by Davidski at 2:48:00 AM

…..

EastPole said…
Yamnaya was exclusively R1b, now we see the same with Afanasievo – only R1b. This suggests that as early as 3500 BC or earlier there were two distinct groups on the steppe, R1b and R1a dominated, which didn’t mix because probably spoke very different languages, had different religions and cultures.
March 1, 2017 at 3:56 AM

Davidski said…
Yamnaya was exclusively R1b. Might be useful not to get too dogmatic about this, until we see samples from more western Yamnaya sites, especially in what was Dnieper-Donets territory, where Neolithic R1a has already been found.
March 1, 2017 at 4:15 AM

422 SKRBH 26 Nowe źródła genetyczne, czyli bardziej i więcej także o tzw. PIE, o ich żonach i ich mtDNA

W odpowiedzi na osobiste, coś jak żądanie… i w nawiązaniu do kilku innych zapytań i spraw, oto nadarzyła się okazja, żeby upowszechnić trochę ciekawych źródeł i wiadomości. Szczególnie polecam rozważania o żeńskich haplogrupach i roli kobiet w dziejach, nie tylko Słowiańszczyzny, ale nie tylko to, bo i tzw PIE tyż można se poczytać…

Mam nadzieję, że ten wpis na jakiś czas zadowoli pewną przedstawicielkę płci przeciwnej, czyli pięknej (bez urazy, ale może nawet i nie jedną)…  😉

…..

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/women-on-move.html

Sunday, February 5, 2017

Women on the move

From the jungle known as the comments section:

First there was the creation of a new way of life north of the Caucasus, a mobile form of pastoralism herding animals which had been domesticated in the near east and the horse which was domesticated somewhere on the Eurasian steppe. Once this new way of life had been developed, it had a tremendous expansionary potential due to the vast amount of land which was suitable for it. This is why polygamy was a good strategy for these pastoralists because, as they competed with one another to build the biggest herds and control the biggest territories, it allowed for a rapid expansion of their family groups. This is the context within which there was a need to bring in additional women from outside. The pastoralists in turn would have been able to offer the families of their Caucasus farmer wives a good bride price for them.

See also…

Women on the Move. The DNA Evidence for Female Mobility and Exogamy in Prehistory

Posted by Davidski

Davidski said…
@Capra
But there is R1a-M17 in Lokomotiv predating Khvalynsk. Was it still east of the Urals?
I know you pride yourself on being objective, but clearly, like a lot of people who post here, you need to work on being realistic. Why would European R1a-M417 come from east of the Urals at such a late stage? Why wouldn’t it come from the western steppe, along with the Corded Ware expansion, from an archaeological group like Dnieper Donets, Sredny Stog or Pontic Yamnaya, that has already been suspected of being ancestral to Corded Ware? Keep in mind that Ukraine N is from a Dnieper Donets burial, and fits the bill as ancestral to the most steppe-shifted Corded Ware individuals. So that comment of yours, was that a brain fart or were you just trolling, or what?
February 5, 2017 at 7:54 PM

413 SKRBH 20 Dawidski (eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk). R1a-Z280 from Early Bronze Age Northern Poland

Davidski said…
Did Slavs absorb/conquer any Balts though? Seriously? In about 80% of former Baltic territory.
January 30, 2017 at 9:05 PM

rozenfag said…
@ Aram Well, even Lev Kleyn criticized the association of Slavs with these cultures.
January 30, 2017 at 9:35 PM

Aram said…
rozenfag
Lev Kleyn criticizes most of things proposed by genetic studies. 🙂 Yamna theory included. Ancient DNA is needed to rule out this proposal.
January 30, 2017 at 11:43 PM

Davidski said…
This EBA dude from Gustorzyn is very similar to Estonian Corded Ware. I’ll put up a new blog post about his genome-wide results later today.
January 31, 2017 at 12:56 AM

Simon said…
I’ll wager Poland or basically the wider circum-Tripolyean region is the homeland of middle-late Proto-Indo-European.
January 31, 2017 at 1:07 AM

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/r1a-z280-from-early-bronze-age-northern.html

Monday, January 30, 2017

R1a-Z280 from Early Bronze Age Northern Poland