555 SKRBH 67 R1a nadchodzi… z północy, czyli kolejne gwoździe do trumny tzw. południowej drogi R1a 02

A tu mam coś jeszcze o R1a, a zwłaszcza o jego braku w tzw. kulturze jamowej / Yamna / Yamnaya… ale także i dalej na południu, także wyznawcy południowej drogi R1a… ten teges…

Przy okazji w środku komentarzy jest widoczna piękna dyskusja o rasizmie, rasach, itp, czyli samozaoranie politycznie poprawnych lewaków maści wszelkiej…

A i przypomnę, że i ja także bardzo kocham Kristiansena i że dawałem temu tu wyraz wielokrotnie… Cieszy Mię, że i East Pole, którego bardzo cenię również kocha tego mendrca duńskiej archeologii miłościom bezgranicznom…

Miłego czytania…


Tuesday, September 26, 2017

The beast among Y-haplogroups

A lot has been written about Y-haplogroup R1a over the years. Sadly, most of it was wrong, such as its posited Pleistocene origin in the Indian subcontinent and subsequent migration to Europe.

In all likelihood, R1a was born somewhere in North Eurasia. More importantly, its presently most common subclade, R1a-M417, no doubt came into existence on the Pontic-Caspian (or Western) steppe in modern-day Ukraine and southern Russia just 7,000-6,000 years ago.

And within a couple of thousand years it expanded in almost all directions, probably on the back of the early Indo-European dispersals, to cover a massive range from Scandinavia to South Asia. It is the beast among Y-haplogroups.

The most common subclade of R1a-M417 in South Asia today is R1a-Z93, and, realistically, it couldn’t have arrived there earlier than about 2,000BC. So much for the Pleistocene.

See also…

R1a-M417 from Eneolithic Ukraine!!!11

Eastern Europe as a bifurcation hotspot for Y-hg R1

Late PIE ground zero now obvious; location of PIE homeland still uncertain, but…

Ancient herders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe crashed into India: no ifs or buts

Posted by Davidski at 10:24:00 PM 241 comments:

EastPole said…
After discovering R1a-M417 in Dereivka culture somebody should inform Kristiansen, Anthony and others that their theory about Corded Ware and Proto-Germanic coming from Yamnaya is obsolete.


September 27, 2017 at 12:03 AM

Aram said…
There was no single M417 in Yamna? I can’t believe it. 🙂
September 27, 2017 at 12:58 AM

Davidski said…
(…) @Aram Too bad for Yamnaya (so far).
September 27, 2017 at 1:03 AM

Karl_K said…
Sredny Stog !
September 27, 2017 at 1:05 AM Czytaj dalej 


554 SKRBH 66 R1a nadchodzi… z północy, czyli kolejne gwoździe do trumny tzw. południowej drogi R1a 01

EastPole said…
I was speculating some time ago that Corded Ware didn’t come from Yamnay but from Sredny Stog.

“The expert Dmytro Telegin has divided the chronology of Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000–3500 BC) used corded ware pottery which may have originated there, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West. Most notably, it has perhaps the earliest evidence of horse domestication (in phase II), with finds suggestive of cheek-pieces (psalia). “


Now the romantic side of what really happened in Alexandria/Dereivka:


Of course “an angel’s kiss in spring” is a poetic metaphor. Girls used hops (xъmel/haoma/soma) not angel’s kisse.
September 20, 2017 at 1:14 AM

Ric Hern said…
@ EastPole And what about Phase 1 of Sredny Stog ? Can you throw any light on that ?
September 20, 2017 at 1:28 AM

Ric Hern said…
@ EastPole And what about this also from Wikipedia: „…Yuri Rassamakin suggests that the Sredny Stog culture should be considered as an areal term, with at least four distinct cultural elements co-existing inside the same geographical area.” Any thoughts ?
September 20, 2017 at 1:33 AM

EastPole said…
@Ric Hern “And what about Phase 1 of Sredny Stog ?”
It could be related to the division into Dereivka I and Dereivka II. Dereivka I population was made of hunter-gatherers and Dereivka II of pastoralists related to Corded Ware Culture. Because of some local differences Sredny Stog was divided into following cultures: Skelanska, Stogovska, Kvitanska and Dereivka by Rassamakin. Let’s wait for aDNA from those cultures before we speculate about them.
September 20, 2017 at 3:14 AM

EastPole said…
What puzzles me greatly is the position Varna and Balkans_Chalcolithic outliers. Assuming that their position on PCA was due to some early migrations from the steppe we can conclude that at the very early age there existed different steppe populations: NO. 1 is like Sredny Stog, NO. 2 is like Yamnaya and NO. 3 is like Yamnaya outlier with a lot of CHG: https://s26.postimg.org/z4i5e3rbd/screenshot_280.png
September 20, 2017 at 11:20 PM

Rob said…
@ EastPole
It’s probably a gradient that’ll fill out with more individuals tested. I’d also add Kumtepe IV to that list. It means that the migration of these „steppe” people, aka north Caucasus or central Eurasians, had begun by 4500 BC, and they had started to arrive at key sites
September 20, 2017 at 11:29 PM

EastPole said…
@Rob “It means that the migration of these „steppe” people, aka north Caucasus or central Eurasians, had begun by 4500 BC, and they had started to arrive at key sites”

If a population similar to late Sredny Stog Dereivka formed somewhere on the steppe as early as 4500 BC then I would guess they are the best candidates for PIE.
September 21, 2017 at 12:06 AM

Oto kilka ostatnich wpisów z http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/, które omawiają wiele bardzo ciekawych zagadnień, związanych min. z pojawianiem się ludzi R1a min. na Bałkanach, z ich końmi, prosem… i kulturą… Niestety dla niektórych… przybyłych z północy, a nie z południa…

Jeśli ktoś jeszcze nie rozumie, że nie ma żadnych dowodów na tzw. południową drogę R1a, no to niech nadal czeka na jakieś zbawienie, a ja tymczasem puszczam te ciekawostki…


Tuesday, September 12, 2017

Three key late comers in prehistoric Greece: steppe ancestry, horses and millet

Czytaj dalej 

495 SKRBH 51 The genomic history of Southeastern Europe (Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint), czyli północna droga R1a rządzi!!! :-)


Dla mnie ten wpis to kolejny dowód na:

a) śmierć „południowej drogi R1a”, bo brak jest R1a na Bałkanach, Anatolii, itp,

b) śmierć Anatolii jako kolebki tzw. PIE, czyli także i języka tzw. PIE,

c) coś dziwnego dzieje się rolnikami z Bałkanów, bo okazują się wcale nie być aż tak anatolijscy, tylko 2000 lat wcześniej zmieszani z hodowcami ze stepu,

d) no i zaczyna się dyskusja nad około 10,500 starym R1a na stepie (Vasilievka)  i w Karelii,

e) no i to samo dotyczy R1b znalezionego w Dereivka, ale przede wszystkim na zachód od stepu… czyli R1b jako, że mieszało się wcześniej z innymi ludami, nie tak jak R1a… to zatraciło np. wiele ze swojego… hm…  „pierwotnego?” języka…    

Folker said…
I find extremely interesting: „early farmers from southern Greece are not descended from the Neolithic population of northwestern Anatolia that was ancestral to all other European farmers”.
May 10, 2017 at 5:07 AM

Gioiello said…
„intermittent steppe ancestry” intermittent doesn’t mean „massive”, I’d say it means „a little” let that I say that, being this word of Latin origin. good-by R-L51 from the East. good-by Samara
May 10, 2017 at 5:15 AM

bellbeakerblogger said…
‚Intermittent’ sounds like pockets of foreigners. Varna elite = Lower Volga? Question is if they are like later Yamnaya?
May 10, 2017 at 5:57 AM

batman said…
According to geography and the alledged bifurication of R1, Varna ‚elite’ should rather relate to a West Side Story of Lower Vistula.
May 10, 2017 at 6:30 AM

Suevi said…
I1819 (8825-8561 calBCE (9420±50 BP, Poz-81128), Ukraine_Mesolithic, Vasil’evka) – R1a
May 10, 2017 at 7:14 AM

Romulus said…
May 10, 2017 at 7:28 AM

Roy King said…
Amazing! Much R1b1a in Balkans!
May 10, 2017 at 7:28 AM

Arza said…
@ EastPole
Ukraine Eneolithic 3500 BCE I4110 from Dereivka looks like a modern Balto-Slav (Figure 1.)
May 10, 2017 at 7:28 AM

Karl_K said…
It’s nice to have enough samples that you can actually get a sense of the variety of mixing between cultures, and the regional differences in genetics. Lots of unexpected stuff here.
May 10, 2017 at 7:49 AM

Slumbery said…
About a much debated topic: it looks like GAC had no „Steppe”, it appears as a typical farmer population, but with elevated (25%) WHG. Also Comb Ware is EHG and assimilating the previous WHG-heavy groups in the Baltic.
May 10, 2017 at 7:58 AM

Karl_K said…
@Slumbery And some Comb Ware were close to 100% EHG. Very interesting that they were so isolated for so long.
May 10, 2017 at 8:03 AM

Romulus said…
Varna man belonged to Y DNA CT, what a let down, guess his golden condom ended that Y line. Other Varna are 2x G2a and 1 R1.
May 10, 2017 at 7:59 AM

Davidski said…
@Karl_K R1a is an EHG marker, native to Eastern Europe. It did not migrate there with CHG.
May 10, 2017 at 9:21 AM

irjhar007 said…
R1a is an EHG marker, native to Eastern Europe

To be neutral you can’t connect autosome with Hgs directly . But obviously we are not worried about M417- clines , they were there all over Eurasia from Meso to Early Neo , we will have to see how the pattern of M417 + emerges. I also think Meso India will also show lots of R1a M417 – , but again it will not matter much to the IE question, to which M417 can be somewhat faithfully connected. Now it turns for the Mycenaean and Maykop , very very crucial and of course India.
May 10, 2017 at 9:30 AM

Davidski said…
@Nirjhar I also think Meso India will also show lots of R1a M417-. You’re totally nuts. Take some pills and go and lie down for a while.
May 10, 2017 at 9:35 AM


Wednesday, May 10, 2017

The genomic history of Southeastern Europe (Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint)

Over at BioRxiv at this LINK:

Abstract: Farming was first introduced to southeastern Europe in the mid-7th millennium BCE – brought by migrants from Anatolia who settled in the region before spreading throughout Europe. However, the dynamics of the interaction between the first farmers and the indigenous hunter-gatherers remain poorly understood because of the near absence of ancient DNA from the region. We report new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 204 individuals-65 Paleolithic and Mesolithic, 93 Neolithic, and 46 Copper, Bronze and Iron Age-who lived in southeastern Europe and surrounding regions between about 12,000 and 500 BCE. We document that the hunter-gatherer populations of southeastern Europe, the Baltic, and the North Pontic Steppe were distinctive from those of western Europe, with a West-East cline of ancestry. We show that the people who brought farming to Europe were not part of a single population, as early farmers from southern Greece are not descended from the Neolithic population of northwestern Anatolia that was ancestral to all other European farmers. The ancestors of the first farmers of northern and western Europe passed through southeastern Europe with limited admixture with local hunter-gatherers, but we show that some groups that remained in the region mixed extensively with local hunter-gatherers, with relatively sex-balanced admixture compared to the male-biased hunter-gatherer admixture that we show prevailed later in the North and West. After the spread of farming, southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between East and West, with intermittent steppe ancestry, including in individuals from the Varna I cemetery and associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian archaeological complex, up to 2,000 years before the Steppe migration that replaced much of northern Europe’s population.

Mathieson et al., The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe, bioRxiv, Posted May 9, 2017, doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135616

See also…

Globular Amphora people starkly different from Yamnaya people

The Bell Beaker Behemoth (Olalde et al. 2017 preprint)

Posted by Davidski at 12:04:00 AM Czytaj dalej

443 SKRBH 34 Północna droga R1a, czyli min. koniec bredni o tzw. „starożytności” języka litewskiego, pochodzeniu tzw. Scytów, Tocharów, itd,..

Joł, joł, joł!!! I co a nie mówiłem, czyli pisałem?!! Piję tu do tego, co napisałem Robertowi, o tym, że nad tymi danymi zapadnie dumna i błogosławiona cisza… Łatwowiernym ludkom wydaje się, że jak odbezpieczony granat wpadł w szambo, to nie wybuchnie, bo go gówno zakręconych pomówień zalepi, jak zalepia usta, uszy i mózgi, tym, którzy w tym szambie pływają, jak ryby w mętnej wodzie… To se ne wrati pane Majdanek… Granat, albo raczej ich wiązka nieubłaganie wybuchnie jeden po drugim, a to co do tej pory usłyszeliście, to był TYLKO JEGO PLUSK… 🙂

Z dobrego serca radzę… czytać źródła… myśleć samodzielnie i błagać o zmiłowanie… Z tym zmiłowaniem to żartowałem…

Jeśli kogoś coś ochlapało, no to pomyślcie co upowszechnię pod koniec tygodnia… Na razie też dumnie będę siedział cicho… aczkolwiek… powrzucam trochę kamyków, popuszczam sobie trochę bączków… jak ten poniżej…

Zakładam, że i z tych danych też wolne umysły niewiele zrozumio, no ale znajcie pańską łaskę, bo co nieco podpowiem… Spójrzcie jakie R1a jest odkryte i gdzie, itd,.. Ma to związek z powstaniem języków bałtyjskich…

Czy ktoś rozumie już, CZEGO TAM NIE MA?!! 🙂

Kurcze!!! Ludzie to jest kolejny materiał na obrazobórczy wpis!!! Upowszechniam tu nie tylko to, co dotyczy północy i Bałtów, bo także to, co dotyczy Scytów, jak i dwóch różnych zestawów mtDNA odnajdywanych w Europie!!!


Łapacze ruskich trolli, czy innych szpionów Putina, wiecie już, że macie przechlapane? Myślę, że Świadomość Nieskończona „trochę” sobie z was i waszych mondrości zażartowała… 🙂 LOL 🙂

Ludzie… to KONIEC bredzeń o „starożytności” języka litewskiego i innych bałtyjskich… Tak, tak Sławomirze… Za prawdę powiadam Ci, poszukuj podkładu językowego w j. polskim… 🙂

Po ….. zamieszczam resztę ciekawostek o Scytach, Afanasiewo, Andronowo i Sintashta… hehehe


Friday, March 3, 2017

The genetic history of Northern Europe (or rather the South Baltic)

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422 SKRBH 26 Nowe źródła genetyczne, czyli bardziej i więcej także o tzw. PIE, o ich żonach i ich mtDNA

W odpowiedzi na osobiste, coś jak żądanie… i w nawiązaniu do kilku innych zapytań i spraw, oto nadarzyła się okazja, żeby upowszechnić trochę ciekawych źródeł i wiadomości. Szczególnie polecam rozważania o żeńskich haplogrupach i roli kobiet w dziejach, nie tylko Słowiańszczyzny, ale nie tylko to, bo i tzw PIE tyż można se poczytać…

Mam nadzieję, że ten wpis na jakiś czas zadowoli pewną przedstawicielkę płci przeciwnej, czyli pięknej (bez urazy, ale może nawet i nie jedną)…  😉



Sunday, February 5, 2017

Women on the move

From the jungle known as the comments section:

First there was the creation of a new way of life north of the Caucasus, a mobile form of pastoralism herding animals which had been domesticated in the near east and the horse which was domesticated somewhere on the Eurasian steppe. Once this new way of life had been developed, it had a tremendous expansionary potential due to the vast amount of land which was suitable for it. This is why polygamy was a good strategy for these pastoralists because, as they competed with one another to build the biggest herds and control the biggest territories, it allowed for a rapid expansion of their family groups. This is the context within which there was a need to bring in additional women from outside. The pastoralists in turn would have been able to offer the families of their Caucasus farmer wives a good bride price for them.

See also…

Women on the Move. The DNA Evidence for Female Mobility and Exogamy in Prehistory

Davidski said…
But there is R1a-M17 in Lokomotiv predating Khvalynsk. Was it still east of the Urals?
I know you pride yourself on being objective, but clearly, like a lot of people who post here, you need to work on being realistic. Why would European R1a-M417 come from east of the Urals at such a late stage? Why wouldn’t it come from the western steppe, along with the Corded Ware expansion, from an archaeological group like Dnieper Donets, Sredny Stog or Pontic Yamnaya, that has already been suspected of being ancestral to Corded Ware? Keep in mind that Ukraine N is from a Dnieper Donets burial, and fits the bill as ancestral to the most steppe-shifted Corded Ware individuals. So that comment of yours, was that a brain fart or were you just trolling, or what?
February 5, 2017 at 7:54 PM

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