555 SKRBH 67 R1a nadchodzi… z północy, czyli kolejne gwoździe do trumny tzw. południowej drogi R1a 02

A tu mam coś jeszcze o R1a, a zwłaszcza o jego braku w tzw. kulturze jamowej / Yamna / Yamnaya… ale także i dalej na południu, także wyznawcy południowej drogi R1a… ten teges…

Przy okazji w środku komentarzy jest widoczna piękna dyskusja o rasizmie, rasach, itp, czyli samozaoranie politycznie poprawnych lewaków maści wszelkiej…

A i przypomnę, że i ja także bardzo kocham Kristiansena i że dawałem temu tu wyraz wielokrotnie… Cieszy Mię, że i East Pole, którego bardzo cenię również kocha tego mendrca duńskiej archeologii miłościom bezgranicznom…

Miłego czytania…


Tuesday, September 26, 2017

The beast among Y-haplogroups

A lot has been written about Y-haplogroup R1a over the years. Sadly, most of it was wrong, such as its posited Pleistocene origin in the Indian subcontinent and subsequent migration to Europe.

In all likelihood, R1a was born somewhere in North Eurasia. More importantly, its presently most common subclade, R1a-M417, no doubt came into existence on the Pontic-Caspian (or Western) steppe in modern-day Ukraine and southern Russia just 7,000-6,000 years ago.

And within a couple of thousand years it expanded in almost all directions, probably on the back of the early Indo-European dispersals, to cover a massive range from Scandinavia to South Asia. It is the beast among Y-haplogroups.

The most common subclade of R1a-M417 in South Asia today is R1a-Z93, and, realistically, it couldn’t have arrived there earlier than about 2,000BC. So much for the Pleistocene.

See also…

R1a-M417 from Eneolithic Ukraine!!!11

Eastern Europe as a bifurcation hotspot for Y-hg R1

Late PIE ground zero now obvious; location of PIE homeland still uncertain, but…

Ancient herders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe crashed into India: no ifs or buts

Posted by Davidski at 10:24:00 PM 241 comments:

EastPole said…
After discovering R1a-M417 in Dereivka culture somebody should inform Kristiansen, Anthony and others that their theory about Corded Ware and Proto-Germanic coming from Yamnaya is obsolete.


September 27, 2017 at 12:03 AM

Aram said…
There was no single M417 in Yamna? I can’t believe it. 🙂
September 27, 2017 at 12:58 AM

Davidski said…
(…) @Aram Too bad for Yamnaya (so far).
September 27, 2017 at 1:03 AM

Karl_K said…
Sredny Stog !
September 27, 2017 at 1:05 AM Czytaj dalej 


554 SKRBH 66 R1a nadchodzi… z północy, czyli kolejne gwoździe do trumny tzw. południowej drogi R1a 01

EastPole said…
I was speculating some time ago that Corded Ware didn’t come from Yamnay but from Sredny Stog.

“The expert Dmytro Telegin has divided the chronology of Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000–3500 BC) used corded ware pottery which may have originated there, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West. Most notably, it has perhaps the earliest evidence of horse domestication (in phase II), with finds suggestive of cheek-pieces (psalia). “


Now the romantic side of what really happened in Alexandria/Dereivka:


Of course “an angel’s kiss in spring” is a poetic metaphor. Girls used hops (xъmel/haoma/soma) not angel’s kisse.
September 20, 2017 at 1:14 AM

Ric Hern said…
@ EastPole And what about Phase 1 of Sredny Stog ? Can you throw any light on that ?
September 20, 2017 at 1:28 AM

Ric Hern said…
@ EastPole And what about this also from Wikipedia: „…Yuri Rassamakin suggests that the Sredny Stog culture should be considered as an areal term, with at least four distinct cultural elements co-existing inside the same geographical area.” Any thoughts ?
September 20, 2017 at 1:33 AM

EastPole said…
@Ric Hern “And what about Phase 1 of Sredny Stog ?”
It could be related to the division into Dereivka I and Dereivka II. Dereivka I population was made of hunter-gatherers and Dereivka II of pastoralists related to Corded Ware Culture. Because of some local differences Sredny Stog was divided into following cultures: Skelanska, Stogovska, Kvitanska and Dereivka by Rassamakin. Let’s wait for aDNA from those cultures before we speculate about them.
September 20, 2017 at 3:14 AM

EastPole said…
What puzzles me greatly is the position Varna and Balkans_Chalcolithic outliers. Assuming that their position on PCA was due to some early migrations from the steppe we can conclude that at the very early age there existed different steppe populations: NO. 1 is like Sredny Stog, NO. 2 is like Yamnaya and NO. 3 is like Yamnaya outlier with a lot of CHG: https://s26.postimg.org/z4i5e3rbd/screenshot_280.png
September 20, 2017 at 11:20 PM

Rob said…
@ EastPole
It’s probably a gradient that’ll fill out with more individuals tested. I’d also add Kumtepe IV to that list. It means that the migration of these „steppe” people, aka north Caucasus or central Eurasians, had begun by 4500 BC, and they had started to arrive at key sites
September 20, 2017 at 11:29 PM

EastPole said…
@Rob “It means that the migration of these „steppe” people, aka north Caucasus or central Eurasians, had begun by 4500 BC, and they had started to arrive at key sites”

If a population similar to late Sredny Stog Dereivka formed somewhere on the steppe as early as 4500 BC then I would guess they are the best candidates for PIE.
September 21, 2017 at 12:06 AM

Oto kilka ostatnich wpisów z http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/, które omawiają wiele bardzo ciekawych zagadnień, związanych min. z pojawianiem się ludzi R1a min. na Bałkanach, z ich końmi, prosem… i kulturą… Niestety dla niektórych… przybyłych z północy, a nie z południa…

Jeśli ktoś jeszcze nie rozumie, że nie ma żadnych dowodów na tzw. południową drogę R1a, no to niech nadal czeka na jakieś zbawienie, a ja tymczasem puszczam te ciekawostki…


Tuesday, September 12, 2017

Three key late comers in prehistoric Greece: steppe ancestry, horses and millet

Czytaj dalej 

478 SKRBH 47 The End of Old Europe and the Rise of the Steppe

Figure 11.3. Tripolye B1-B2 migrations. After Dergachev 2002, figure 6.2.

Znalazłem ten tekst przypadkiem, kiedy szukałem grafik do poprzedniego wpisu. Wydaje mi się, że jest to część książki D.W. Anthony The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World… 

Uważam, że D.W. Anthony swoim brakiem znajomości słowiańskich nazw części wozu i konia, patrz np. wpis nr 44 udowodnił, jak mondra i wszechfiedząca jest ofitzjalna nałka,.. która oczywiście także nie jest uprzedzona przeciw-słowiańskio… ;-( Do tej mondrości powrócę jeszcze i wykażę, że tacy jak D.W. Anthony są uprzedzeni przeciw-słowiańsko lub… zwyczajnie niedouczeni… 😦


The End of Old Europe and the Rise of the Steppe

By 4300–4200 BCE Old Europe was at its peak. The Varna cemetery in eastern Bulgaria had the most ostentatious funerals in the world, richer than anything of the same age in the Near East. Among the 281 graves at Varna, 61 (22%) contained more than three thousand golden objects together weighing 6 kg (13.2 lb). Two thousand of these were found in just four graves (1, 4, 36, and 43). Grave 43, an adult male, had golden beads, armrings, and rings totaling 1,516 grams (3.37 lb), including a copper axe-adze with a gold-sheathed handle.1 Golden ornaments have also been found in tell settlements in the lower Danube valley, at Gumelniţa, Vidra, and at Hotnitsa (a 310-gm cache of golden ornaments). A few men in these communities played prominent social roles as chiefs or clan leaders, symbolized by the public display of shining gold ornaments and cast copper weapons.

Thousands of settlements with broadly similar ceramics, houses, and female figurines were occupied between about 4500 and 4100 BCE in eastern Bulgaria (Varna), the upland plains of Balkan Thrace (KaranovoVI), the upper part of the Lower Danube valley in western Bulgaria and Romania (Krivodol-Sălcuta), and the broad riverine plains of the lower Danube valley (Gumelniţa) (figure 11.1). Beautifully painted ceramic vessels, some almost 1 m tall and fired at temperatures of over 800˚C, lined the walls of their two-storied houses. Conventions in ceramic design and ritual were shared over large regions. The crafts of metallurgy, ceramics, and even flint working became so refined that they must have required master craft specialists who were patronized and supported by chiefs. In spite of this, power was not obviously centralized in any one village. Perhaps, as John Chapman observed, it was a time when the restricted resources (gold, copper, Spondylus shell) were not critical, and the critical resources (land, timber, labor, marriage partners) were not seriously restricted. This could have prevented any one region or town from dominating others.2

Figure 11.1 Map of Old Europe at 4500–4000 BCE. Czytaj dalej